How I Got A Job Offer For An AI Data Scientist (with No AI Background)
The Exception That Taught Me The Hidden Rules of Job Hunting
Sitting in a hotel room in Disney World, I stared down at my computer screen in disbelief. I just got off the call with a recruiter who asked me to take another look at their company. I was looking over the offer and still trying to process the conversation.
This was a big deal. It was the highest salary of my career, one of the best companies in their industry and the most prestigious title I would have had until that point: AI Data Scientist. I would be working as an honest to goodness Research Professional.
Given my background as a self taught engineer, this was incredible enough. But even more extraordinary was the fact that I was not a Data Scientist or even had any relevant AI background. The most experience I had related to the role was a Data Science Bootcamp I applied to in 2012.
And yet there it was, a job offer. Was it a mistake? Did they get the wrong email? No, they knew exactly who I was and this was no accident. They weren't crazy, and after going through multiple interviews, I finally understood what they were looking for. And it completely changed how I viewed the hiring process.
But before we get there, let's start at the beginning.
Early Job Hunting
It was 2018 and I had spent the last 12 months trying out a new career as an entrepreneur. I enjoyed the experience, and was building deep roots in the Indianapolis area, knowing I could always get a job through one of my contacts. But after a year building, I realized that something else was becoming more important: my children. My extended family lived in North Carolina and the kids wanted to see their cousins and grandparents more often. So my wife and I finally decided that it was time to move back home.
Having been a decade since I lived in North Carolina, I had no network to rely on. I also didn’t know what to call myself. I had done so many roles since I last job hunted that I could do many things well. So I chose the thing that looked the best to me on paper: solution architect. It was my last job in technology and seemed to fit my 'jack-of-all-trades' feeling I wanted out of the experience.
I polished my resume, started applying to jobs and was met with a resounding… yawn. Or maybe they coughed, or cried, or all went to lunch, I didn’t know because I was hearing nothing. The few interviews I did get didn't give me much confidence. Recruiters and employers looked at me like discount baked goods: I looked tempting but they weren't sure if I was going to hold up long-term.
After a few interviews (including one where the company's CTO called me a light-weight), I decided I needed to change strategies. I was applying to too few roles and I had a resume that was ill-defined. I needed a change.
After a few alterations and testing the market, I had a resume that ended up getting responses: Python Developer. It was true to my background, was flexible enough to allow me to apply to lots of positions, and meant that I could just fire off my resume a dozen times a day without care.
Probably too little care, as it was exactly this strategy that caused me to apply to a role I was under qualified for, but got me noticed regardless…
Getting The First Recruitment Call
By this point, I’m starting to hit a rhythm with my interviews. The first interview will be with a recruiter just to verify your details and give you a little background on the position. So when I got a call from a 919 (Raleigh) area code, I was excited to get another interview. I picked up the phone to answer.
"Hello, is this Brian?"
"Yes, this is him"
"Hi this is <recruiter> from <big firm>. I saw you applied to our Python role and wanted to talk with you about the position."
"Yes, I did. I appreciate you giving me a call. I saw the position and wanted to chat.'
By that point, I was not 100% sure what the position was, and was only vaguely aware that I may have applied to a job here. Applying so frequently has that affect. However, I was sure that after talking with the recruiter my memory would be jogged.
I went forward confidently, knowing I’d have my answer soon. The recruiter started with his questions.
"So, you applied to this Python position and the team is interested in chatting. The manager is looking for someone with a strong background in analytics with some blockchain experience. It says here you have that background, correct?"
I did! Well, mostly. I had enough experience in Blockchain to be dangerous, but was previously turned down for a blockchain role. The Python, though, I had in spades.
"Yes, I have a lot of experience with Python and have been using it since 2012. Let me tell you how I used that in my previous roles…”
Over the course of the interview, I explained my background to someone who wasn't 100% sure what I was talking about. However, he must have heard enough of the right keywords to be considered a safe bet to send to his manager. That’s typical for recruiters.
However, despite 45 minutes of discussion, I never got deeper details on the job. As I paced around my office and even scanned my emails, I didn’t know what this role could be. I usually remembered a few hot roles I was particularly keen on, but this one wasn't ringing any bells, and the recruiter wasn't giving any hints.
After he was done, I wanted to covertly ask him about the title.
"Well Brian, I'll pass your resume along to the hiring manager and we'll see how they like you."
"Thank you, I look forward to hearing from you. If you could do me a favor, would you mind sending me over a full copy of the job description? I'd like to review it before the next call."
"Sure, that won't be a problem."
Telling the recruiter outright you have no clue what job you're applying to is never a great job hunting tactic, but the recruiter didn't seem too concerned. I hung up the phone and waited.
About five minutes later I get an email from the recruiter for the role that I applied to. While the role did ask for Python experience, it did require… a bit more. A PhD was preferred, but if I had an MS in Neurolinguistic Programming lying around, that would work too.
The role I had somehow applied to was "Senior AI Data Scientist - NLP, Blockchain"
In addition to having 10+ years of experience in software development (which even with very generous math I could barely touch), it also expected it's applicants to have a degree in AI, ML, NLP or Blockchain… none of which I was even remotely close to having. I wasn't an AI expert, I wasn't an NLP wizard. The most I ever did was a Kaggle competition which I placed 35th out of 36 in five years previously.
At this point, I just shrugged. Perhaps the recruiter interviewed me for the wrong role, maybe he sent over the wrong job description, or perhaps he was a new recruiter who didn't 100% understand the role. Regardless, I thought that I would never hear from them again and moved on with my life. After all, I wasn't qualified, so why should I worry?
Three days later, I get a call from that same 919 area code. I picked up the call.
"Brian, the hiring manager loves your background. He wants to schedule a call. When is the best time to meet?"
My First Manager Interview
At this point, I was at a loss. People apply to poorly fitting jobs all the time, some of them even get recruitment interviews. But getting to talk to the hiring manager means they’re serious. You don't get to talk to that person unless they really think you have something interesting to offer. That's what the whole CV process is for: weeding out people who weren't qualified for the job… and given the job I applied to, that was me.
But the hiring manager didn't think so. And we would have a chat if I wanted it. At this point, I had an important decision to make about this process. I was nervous because I had no clue what this manager saw in me.
Still, I needed a strategy for this next call. I had two options, either:
Tell the hiring manager I wasn't qualified for the position but would still be interested, or
Play it straight, talk about my experience and just be cool
While I was nervous, I also really wanted to get this job. Getting a role would simplify so much of my future plans, and even if I was underqualified, the experience of interviewing was always a welcome challenge. So I decided to take the call and be cool.
But first, I started with some research. I found the information for the gentleman I would be interviewing with and did as much reading on him as possible. He had been in the Data Science field for some time and was now heading a division of other Data Scientists in this major firm. While I was intimidated by him, he seemed friendly enough in his interviews, talking about wanting to teach people about Data Science.
I took notes on things he thought were important and made sure to read them before the interview. Before long, I felt ready enough. I was in my frigid basement on a Wednesday morning when another 919 number rang on the phone. I answered, trying to be confident.
"Hello, this is Brian Schuster."
On the other end came a very soft spoken and incredibly elegant British accent. To my American ears, this was peak intelligence.
"Hello Brian, it's nice to meet you. I'm <very important Data Scientist>. How are you today?"
We exchanged pleasantries for a minute before we got down to business.
"So Brian, I'd like you to tell me a bit about your background."
Now, I had the choice of deciding this: do I want to talk about my small yet inconsequential background in Data Science, just to make it seem like I’m more qualified… or do I just talk about my experience as is.
While I desperately wanted to talk about my background in DS, I didn't feel like I had enough to say anything at all that made me sound… well competent. He would have been able to ask me some DS problems that would have had me off guard immediately. So, I avoided the topic entirely.
Instead, I did this:
"So, let me tell you about my experience with building data applications in SQL and then Python."
I spent the next 15 minutes talking about my background in the various different firms I worked for. I talked about the midnight releases at the software start-up I worked for, the MVPs of the projects I had built working for major media firms, and the data analytics projects I was passionate about.
It was truthful and even passionate. I truly did love the work I did. It was, however, completely and totally devoid of any sort of Data Science background. No AI, NLP, not even a mention of a Udemy course I puttered around with. I finished my background and waited.
"…Well Brian, that sounds great. Let me tell you a bit about the role."
He then proceeded to tell me about team, the role, the mission, where they fit into the great mission of the team's organization. He was talking to me as if I was someone who was perfectly qualified for the role. He didn't challenge anything in my background… if anything he seemed pleased.
He finished up the call. "I enjoyed this chat, Brian. Let me go back to the team and we'll be in contact with you shortly. Do you have any questions for me before we end?"
I was stunned… if I had fit any part of his original job description, it was maybe 10% of the job. Maybe less. So I had plenty of questions: Why am I being considered for an AI Data Science role in the first place? Why do you need someone with a PhD if you're willing to consider someone with a BS? What, exactly, about my background is so compelling to you?
Despite wanting to know more, I didn't want to rock the boat. So I took my father’s faithful advice on how to handle negotiations that are going well: shut the hell up.
"No, I don't have any questions at this time, but I'd love a chance to chat further."
I hung up the phone excited but confused. That… clearly seemed to go well. But it still didn't make sense to me.
A few days later I got a call from the recruiter. They wanted me to fly down to headquarters to meet with the team and have a final set of interviews. Of course, I accepted, hoping to get a job offer, or at least some answers.
Flying Down to Headquarters and Meeting The Geniuses
I flew down on a Friday morning and walked into the beautiful office on the outskirts of Raleigh. This is a company that had been the expert in it's industry for years and their lobby was fancy enough to prove. I'm even fairly certain it had a water feature near the entrance (but perhaps I'm making that up).
The receptionist greeted me and escorted me to the third floor. Inside, the beautiful lobby turned into a rather traditional cubicle farm, and I eventually was placed in an interior office with a single desk and three chairs.
A few minutes later, I heard a knock on the door. Two people, a tall white man in his mid-40's and an Indian woman in her 30's came to join me. As it turned out, these were the people I would be calling my peers if I got the job.
While I was 30 at this time (and could hold my own in development), I felt immediately outclassed by these individuals. The man explained that he was a PhD in Computer Science, and had a specialization in Artificial Intelligence. He had left academia and pursued his role at this organization because he wanted to apply his knowledge to the real world, which this role offered.
The woman was a MS in NLP (Neuro-linguistic Programming) and was heading up one of the team's internal projects to translate papers from any language to any other language. She was taking her research and applying it with models she developed in Python. It was impressive work.
And then there was me, with my BS in Business Administration (which might as well been a degree in dance therapy for all the good it did me in that room). But I was still adamant on playing this role straight: I was going to present my background as confidently and honestly as I could and let them decide. So I went into my background, the same background I told this team's manager.
And by the end… they seemed accepting. Or at least, they weren't upset about anything that I had told them. And was that a hint of approval I felt? The meeting was noteworthy for how uneventful it was given my background. After some additional pleasantries about the organization and how they got there, they got up and left. I considered that a win and waited for the next interview.
The receptionist came by again.
"Hey Brian, <manager with eloquent british accent> will be joining you with <his boss, accent unknown>. He'll be here in five minutes."
She left and it was clear: this was the final interview. At this point, I've all but given up on what exactly they saw in me, only that it was something good. Instead, I would keep playing it straight.
Fortunately, this interview would finally give me an answer to why they were looking at me.
The Big Boss and The Answer I Was Looking For
The manager I had previous spoken to entered the room behind me. He was a stocky middle aged man in glasses and a comfy looking blue sweater. He seemed as approachable as the photos I had seen of him online.
The gentleman behind him, on the other hand, did not present that at all. Well over six feet tall, this man had silver hair and the sort of no non-sense look on his face. He spoke first.
"Hello Brian, it's nice to meet you."
His tone was clear cut: all business, no bullshit. This interview would be different.
"It's a pleasure to meet you, thank you for having me!"
They looked at my resume for a bit and I talked about my experience, same as the other folks. After a few minutes of going through my background, the man tossed my resume down and leaned back in his chair, like he was going to level with me on some bad news.
"It says on your resume you know blockchain, but the truth is, you don't have the experience. You don't know it like our team does. Tell me, how does <complex blockchain technical issue> work?"
For a layperson, I had an answer that was good enough, but nothing like a PhD level understanding of the subject. Something that, up until that point, no one in the interview process had acknowledged.
Well, almost no one had acknowledged.
"See?", he leaned forward again, "You don't know this stuff? We need experts in this role."
This is never fun to hear in an interview, but I stay strong in my position. I've made it this far, I wasn't going to give up here.
"Well, yes, I don't have that level of experience, but that’s only because I haven’t had the chance to work on projects deeply. Given the chance, I’d learn it well and produce an MVP of what I’m working on. I'd love a chance learn this more deeply."
The boss seemed to soften at this point, leaning back again and looking at the manager I'd be working for. The manager spoke up on my behalf.
"He can learn the technology required here, he just needs the time."
This surprised me. The PhD requirement was, at that point, the biggest hurdle to, well, anyone getting the role. I suspected they thought I could learn this information, but to hear it stated so plainly was surprising for an interview. And I had heard that sometimes candidates can have other skills that make up for their lack of expertise.
But that led to the (literal) $100,000 questions… what exactly DID they see in me?
The big boss looked back at me.
"Look, you're one of the most passionate engineers we've ever had walk in here. I could use 200 guys like you working in our organization. But for this role…" he glanced at the manger before returning to me, "I just don't know if you'll be able to keep up."
The manager spoke up again, this time addressing me.
"In your background, you've built a lot of Python applications, yes?"
"Yes, I built an MVP of our reporting module and delivered it to my family's insurance company. I worked with healthcare providers and built customized reporting tools. And…"
He put his hand up to hush me.
"Our team has a lot of brilliant researchers from academia. They do groundbreaking work and come up with some truly remarkable work. But the truth is that the development teams are having trouble implementing their solutions. They just don’t understand it well enough."
This time I leaned forward, finally hearing what I was going to do here.
"Our team has a lot of products they want to deliver, and our development teams can build them. But we just haven't been successful because they don't have enough of a product to work with. They have the ideas, but someone needs to show them how the product would actually work together. Someone who can build MVPs and talk with the development team."
And finally the pieces fell into place. When I had spoken to my manager and he saw my background, he knew damn well I didn't fit their expectation of the researcher they needed. But that's exactly why I made it as far as I did. They didn't have a name for the role they were hiring me for… they only knew the problem. Once they saw my background and what I brought to the table, they wanted to take the chance on me.
I spoke up.
"Well, I know this is something that wouldn’t be a challenge for me. I love new technology, I love solving business problems and I love working with developers. I'm certain that if I were to join your team I'd be able to help you."
The manager looked back at me approvingly. His manager, on the other, didn't look so convinced.
After a few more minutes of questions and another pop quiz on blockchain (that I felt I could have passed if given more than 5 seconds), our time was up.
I shook both of the men's hands as they left. The manager looked certain, but his boss still seemed conflicted. At the very least, I felt I understood why I was there, but wasn’t sure if I’d get a job offer if the big boss wasn’t approving.
I didn't have much time to think about this, as I was escorted back out of the building and onto thinking about my next interview with IBM for some DevOps role.
Responding To The Job Offer and The Hidden Rules of Job Hunting
I'm back in my room at Disney. I’m staring at an email from the recruiter:
I hope your week and vacation are going well. I just wanted to check in to see if you had the opportunity to review the offer that I sent on Tuesday? I would love to get your feedback. Please let me know if there are any questions I can answer or any additional details I can provide.
And there were a ton of details, a lot of great details. This was a lot of money. And a lot of prestige. It would have been a chance to push my career into a completely new place. Which is exactly what I said I wanted.
I sat down to write my response.
Thank you for the offer. While I am very grateful for the offer, I am still going to be accepting the offer from the other firm. I do appreciate our discussion and hope you find a fitting candidate for your organization.
I closed my computer, pleased. This was an amazing role, but IBM just had a better fit for what I wanted. It gave me a lot of flexiblity, a ton of problems and a good team to work with. And considering I went from mid-level engineer to engineering manager in 2.5 years, I think I made the right choice overall.
Still, this experience was so different that it completely changed how I spoke about job hunting to others. I realized there were some things I had never realized about the job hunting process (or never believed) until I saw it happen here.
First, you have no idea what managers are really hiring for when they put out that job listing. Roles are necessarily narrow to attract a particular kind of skillset, but at the end of the day they hire for the team. And a team has many, many needs, some of which are hard to fill with canned job descriptions. Most people recognize this in the reverse form (being denied a position they fit well because they don’t fit the culture), but fail to see that the opposite can also happen (not fitting the description well but still being hired). What you may call ‘not relevant’ experience may be exactly what their team is looking for.
This made me think: if this role ended up being within my reach, how many other roles had I been in contention for and never realized it? How many other positions did I have a better chance than I expected? How many other shots were closer than I expected?
Second, I’m convinced that remaining confident throughout the entire process was half the reason the team made an offer to me. As I went through the interviews, it could have been very easy to lose my confidence and say "I'm not qualified for this role"… and they would have believed me. I’ll never know for certain, but my decision to be honest but confident might have been the factor to keep me in contention. At some point, their team had to sit down and decide if they wanted to take a chance on me or not. If I had seemed unsure of myself during the process, would they have still giving me an offer? I very much doubt it.
Third, education is increasingly becoming a non-factor in the hiring process for great technical talent. Part of the reason I was so nervous was because the job description as for someone with a Doctorate or Master’s Degree. To be fair, the experience they were expecting did line up quite well with someone who had that degree. But at the end of the day, they were willing to consider me without even the ‘minimum’ requirement. My interesting experience, not my educational credentials, mattered the most. This has become so prevalent that I don’t even add education requirements to the jobs I hire for.
Finally, this interview taught me that you shouldn't expect the same process everywhere you go. I hope you enjoyed this story, but now I have a question for you (particularly if you’ve applied to technology jobs): where is the dog that isn’t barking? Go ahead and look over my process again to see if you spot what's missing.
…
Did you notice how I didn't talk about having a technical interview?
Neither did I until retelling this story many months later. Yes, the most technical position I had, one that would require the most out of me technically, was completely devoid of a technical interview. Was this typical? No, but it’s worth repeating that every interview will be different. If I had thought about studying for a deep technical interview and stressed over that, I would have been focused on the completely wrong subject.
Ultimately, my hope isn’t to get you to apply to every senior position you find. You’ll frustrate yourself and quite a few recruiters if you do that. But I hope to illustrate that if you’re going to be looking for your next dream job, you need to be brave enough to apply to things you think are nuts from time to time. My process of applying was reckless enough that I eventually got to interview for this position. But if I had been deliberate, who knows what else could have fallen in my lap. Maybe this would have become a series of great job offers.
If you do take away one thing from this, it’s to go out and take one additional risk you wouldn’t have taken. Just one. If you’re applying to jobs, apply to one that’s out of your league. If you’re looking to make a contact, reach out to a big contact and ask for coffee. If you’re publishing for your brand, take the leap and try something a bit crazier. There is no reward without risk… and every once in a while, it pays off.
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